Why Amazon Vine is a Threat Worth Talking About

Fri, Jun 12, 2009

Connected Consumption

picture-41Have you heard about Amazon Vine? I hadn’t until tonight. And what I learned about it is, I think, really important to talk about for reasons I’ll get to in a second. First off, according to Amazon, here’s what Amazon Vine is:

Amazon Vine™ is a program that enables a select group of Amazon customers to post opinions about new and pre-release items to help their fellow customers make educated purchase decisions. Customers are invited to become Amazon Vine™ Voices based on the trust they have earned in the Amazon community for writing accurate and insightful reviews. Amazon provides Amazon Vine™ members with free copies of products that have been submitted to the program by vendors. Amazon does not influence the opinions of Amazon Vine™ members, nor do we modify or edit their reviews.

Seems harmless enough right? Here’s why I think not. Tonight I was looking at a product (which I’ll leave nameless for now) and what I was seeing was really interesting. There were dozens of glowing four and five star reviews for the product but also a number of one and two star reviews. What caught my eye was that the four and five star reviews were mostly Amazon Vine reviews while all of the one star reviews (there were plenty) were not Amazon Vine reviews. I started looking at other products in the same category and sure enough, the same result.

So what’s the big deal? Well, I’m a big believer that connected consumption has made the world a lot better place in the last 10 years. Rather than buying some crap product because Madison Avenue force fed it down our collective throats, we’re out buying products, consuming services and going to places that our friends recommended or that have awesome reviews on sites like Yelp, TripAdvisor and yes, Amazon. This is a very, very good thing and has raised the standards for products and services globally. After all, most companies know nowadays that if they put a lousy product out into the market word is going to spread much faster than in the past.

And that’s why I think this whole Amazon Vine thing is so important. I largely trust Amazon reviews. Sure, authors and producers spike their reviews and we all take into account that a certain percentage of reviews are planted. But Amazon has taken some great counter-measures like RealNames, their Top Reviewer programs and the “Was this review helpful?” feature that help people separate the real stuff from the fake stuff.

But with Amazon Vine it seems the company is headed in the opposite direction. They’re essentially paying for reviews (with free products) and on the other hand receiving cash from the companies whose products are reviewed through Vine. Maybe I’m dense but how is this any better than PayPerPost, a company which makes money by having companies pay bloggers to write reviews of the products of those companies.

And here’s what I don’t get at all. No outrage from any major bloggers as far as I can tell. TechCrunch railed on PayPerPost for months but if you think about it, Amazon Vine probably influences consumption patterns way more than PayPerPost ever will. Maybe it’s because it’s only free products we’re talking about here, not actual cash for reviews. But that shouldn’t matter. Free products affect peoples’ reviews too, especially if the reviewer thinks that writing poor reviews might result in him or her getting cut off from the spigot of new products showing up in their mailbox each week.

As far as I can tell, Amazon Vine is simply a modern-day version of payola. There are some steps that Amazon can take to right the ship here. They can get really transparent with everything related to Amazon Vine. Tell everyone how much companies are paying. Reveal what the aggregate differences are in ratings between Amazon Vine reviewers and non-reviewers. Give people the option to not see Amazon Vine reviews (I’d prefer this).

Sure, bloggers and authors and the like have been receiving free products for years. However, if we got the sense that their reviews were biased we’d just stop reading them. With Amazon Vine reviews we don’t currently have that luxury. We’re being shown reviews for people who didn’t pay a dime for a product adjacent to people who shelled out their hard earned cash to pay for the product. You think there isn’t a difference here in how people evaluate things when it has been given to them for free?

Am I making too big of a deal about this? I don’t know…we’ve come a long way from the pre-Internet days when we as consumers had very little visibility into whether a product was actually good. Then along came all sorts of awesome enablers of connected consumption like Twitter, Facebook, MySpace, Last.fm and yes, Amazon. Those services have made the world much better. And it’s up to us to take a stand against the erosion of all the gains we’ve realized.

Because if we don’t and companies figure out a way to exploit consumers through stuff like Vine then you bet your last dollar they’ll take this to the hilt and give millions of dollars in products (plus the requisite payola to Amazon) to make sure their products have tons of good reviews. And when that happens, well, we’re right back to where we started.

This post was written by:

Jon - who has written 27 posts on JonBischke.com.


Contact the author

  • CL
    I am an Amazon Top Reviewer, and an Amazon Vine Reviewer, and I will say that the program is somewhat tedious (I feel obligated to read books that I would've given up on ordinarily) and hard to get into. A good review is not easy to write, and those who are invited to Amazon Vine are asked on basis of the helpfulness of their cumulative reviews. I can write one hundred five star reviews on Amazon that say, "great book, would read again" and possibly no one would rate my review as helpful. I can write deep, thoughtful reviews enumerating the pros and cons of a book or product, recommending whom I think would benefit from the product, and get several helpful votes, and sometimes one or two non-helpful votes. I've been purchasing from Amazon about eight years and I don't think I have more than 200 helpful votes, if that tells you how long it takes to become a top reviewer. The books are basically galleys; there are still typos and such. Most of us don't get free stuff that is worth more than a few dollars, and often it feels like work to finish or get halfway through a boring book, and then sit down and write a really good and fair review. I wish that you would explore the Vine program a little more before you make a sweeping judgement like this. You can certainly see for yourself some of the thought and effort that goes into whether or not it is worth it for a long-term Amazon customer to take part in the Vine programs here: https://www.amazon.com/gp/vine/forum?ie=UTF8&%2...
  • Thanks CL. Couldn't hit the link but no doubt many of the Amazon reviewers take Vine extremely seriously. And I think it does serve a function in terms of having reviews available out of the gate for brand new products. That's a good use for it. Where I have a bigger problem is when it's being used to game the system.
  • Jon... this will self correct in time: by amazon consumers realizing the reviews are worthless, and then avoiding them.

    Think of it as a gift to BN.com. ;-) Generally, Amazon is not "evil" and so perhaps getting some Digg.com attention on this will force their hand to add transparency and options.

    Also, it's only a matter of time before someone connects reviews by degree of separation; i.e. you trust your friends more than a stranger... this could be a great firefox plugin, a facebook app, a standalone site, iPhone app..? Not my battle but I look forward to using it.

    (from RogerV via Facebook)
    launching www.SwiftCRM.com in July, which shares the same backend and document storage system with iSignature.com i.e. it's pre-integrated. Also, BTW, let me know if you guys add more people to BBBGC, i've been in mad scientist mode too long and thus antisocial.
  • Social graph + reviews/feedback = the wave of the future. Now with Facebook Connect this could be done fairly easily eh?
  • It would seem that this would be helped by Amazon "disappearing" the Vine reviews once an equal number of non-Vine reviews pop up. This way the Vine reviews are only there to seed products as they launch, so a shopper has some sort of peer review available (which would seem like the main benefit of this product to me). I'd love to see one of the blogs, GigaOm or TC, etc do an indepth scientific study to see how skewed the rankings really are...
  • I like that Surya (hi!) and will take it a step further. What about offering a Digg-style feature where people can vote reviews up or done just like they do with Digg comments. You set a minimum default threshold so *most* reviews are visible. However, reviews falling beneath the threshold do not show up and their ratings are not included in the overall ratings. Of course, as a user you can choose to see all reviews if you'd like.

    This already happens a bit with Vine because many people already vote Vine reviews as "not helpful" and therefore they don't show up at the top of the heap. However, Amazon needs to take this a step further.
  • shefaly
    Jon: Amazon Vine Reviews actually display "Vine Review" next to the particular reviews. I think that disclosure is important. Secondly the reviews also display the standing of a reviewer (the Vine reviews do not count towards my "ranking" as a reviewer so as a top-1000 reviewer for many years, I am doing myself no favours by reviewing Vine books!). So one can, if one wishes to see how fair the review is, read other reviews and find out whether to rely on it or not. Screeching "LOVE This book!" reviews appear aplenty thanks to "friends" of authors so that is a filter that must be applied while reading reviews anyway. Also I think the reviews are not the only major influencer of a purchase decision. But what the influences are is often discussed in the blogosphere! Now here is the most interesting thing in my experience: The programme requires that one reviews 3 out of 4 products bought. Serious readers find next to nothing on offer which is worth reading which may explain why despite signing up I have probably only ever written 2 or 3 Vine reviews.

    Thanks for linking to my post (it is linked to the hyperlinked word "receiving" above). Which is how I found your post.
  • EL
    How are you doing yourself no favors by reviewing Vine books? Receiving free books is a nice little benefit.
  • shefaly
    EL:

    There is a value on the time one spends reading what may turn out to be a rubbish book. Free in that case is really quite expensive. The Vine lists consistently offer popular fare which is not what I read and reviewed

    When I said I am not doing myself any favours, I said that in the context of Vine reviews not contributing to my standing as a "reviewer" because Vine reviews are not counted as reviews for my ranking.
  • Hey Shefaly. Trying to get more of a handle on how the Amazon reviewer system works. When you say that Vine reviews "don't count" does that mean that they can't hurt your standing as a reviewer as well? In other words, is there normally a penalty for non-helpful reviews that people who are writing Vine reviews don't receive for those reviews?
  • shefaly
    Hi Jon. As far as I know there is no pecking order in Vine unlike in regular reviews. This means there is no Vine ranking whereas there IS a broader Amazon Reviewer ranking. So yes, no negative ranking thing might apply whereas for regular reviews it does.

    All I am saying is this - for good and well-rated reviewers, who have been reviewing a long time (over 6 years in my case), the disincentives of Vine are too numerous to bother with.

    However the Vine reviews are fully disclosed/ identified as such and my few Vine reviews were not all glowing and have not been moderated or edited.

    Hope this helps.
  • shefaly
    Hi Jon. As far as I know there is no pecking order in Vine unlike in regular reviews. This means there is no Vine ranking whereas there IS a broader Amazon Reviewer ranking. So yes, no negative ranking thing might apply whereas for regular reviews it does.

    All I am saying is this - for good and well-rated reviewers, who have been reviewing a long time (over 6 years in my case), the disincentives of Vine are too numerous to bother with.

    However the Vine reviews are fully disclosed/ identified as such and my few Vine reviews were not all glowing and have not been moderated or edited.

    Hope this helps.
  • shefaly
    Jon: Amazon Vine Reviews actually display "Vine Review" next to the particular reviews. I think that disclosure is important. Secondly the reviews also display the standing of a reviewer (the Vine reviews do not count towards my "ranking" as a reviewer so as a top-1000 reviewer for many years, I am doing myself no favours by reviewing Vine books!). So one can, if one wishes to see how fair the review is, read other reviews and find out whether to rely on it or not. Screeching "LOVE This book!" reviews appear aplenty thanks to "friends" of authors so that is a filter that must be applied while reading reviews anyway. Also I think the reviews are not the only major influencer of a purchase decision. But what the influences are is often discussed in the blogosphere! Now here is the most interesting thing in my experience: The programme requires that one reviews 3 out of 4 products bought. Serious readers find next to nothing on offer which is worth reading which may explain why despite signing up I have probably only ever written 2 or 3 Vine reviews.

    Thanks for linking to my post (it is linked to the hyperlinked word "receiving" above). Which is how I found your post.
  • Amazon will remove negative reviews if publishers or authors ask them to.
    I collected some links about this a while ago here: http://www.darkcoding.net/society/amazon-cuts-n...
    There's a NYTimes article from 2005 here: http://www.nytimes.com/2005/10/10/business/10am...

    Even without official support for rating 'enhancement' like this and Vine, the system is quite open to abuse, as is Trip Advisor. I totally agree with RogerV, reviews need to be integrated with our 'social graph', from my address book, Facebook, etc.
  • Genius point Graham. I think that's why Twitter and Facebook are so valuable. I'm getting recommended stuff daily by people who I know and trust rather than some stranger on the Internet who might be a plant, getting free product, etc.

    A company that leverages the social graph for reviews is going to be very, very successful.
  • No way are you making a big deal out of this, I very much agree with you!

    Quite a while ago, when my fiancé, host of schoolishard.com, was asked by Ronzoni Bistro to try those relatively new microwaveable pasta pouches and review them on his blog to appeal to low-budget college students, he was already positive about it because it was free. However, he still criticized the cost in relation to college students' budgets (when it used to be over $3.00 per packet). In someone else's case, they probably would've ignored that fact because they essentially received four free meals.

    People really need to consider this when checking out Amazon Vine.
  • Sadly most don't and as more companies catch on to that I can easily see Amazon turning into a Vine spam fest, especially given how much money is at stake. I really, really don't want to see that.
  • Great post, totally agree, I generally trust Amazon reviews but by adding a service like this it will change the landscape in user generated reviews forever.
  • DAMM! I had no idea this existed. You are spot on BTW, I agree. I use those reviews a lot as well, I never read the 5's and only read the 3,2 and 1's for the most part. I must of missed the "vine" disclosure icon others speak about here amongst all the other crap they have put on product pages over the last 3 years.
  • Me too Marc. That's why I wanted to raise some awareness about this.
  • Chris
    I think you are overreacting to this. It's not like amazon is inviting everyone into the Vines program. People have to have already written lots of reviews that were considered helpful.

    It sounds like you are assuming that everyone who gets a review copy of something will write a glowing review. And that would also mean no one in the Vines program has any ethics or integrity.

    If that's the case, we might as well totally forget about reviews. Do you think movie critics pay to see the movies they review?

    If you really have such a low view of other people, I'd suggest completely ignoring the reviews. Or perhaps you are just anti-business.

    I'm hoping the Vines reviews will help balance out the idiots who post 1-star reviews because there was a shipping delay, or have some other issue that has nothing to do with the quality of the product they are supposedly reviewing (like whining that some software doesn't have a Mac version, when the product is clearly listed as being Windows software).
  • Fair points Chris but I think the movie reviewer one doesn't quite totally hit the mark. Critics (whether they be movie reviewers, music reviewers, etc.) make a name for themselves by doing a good job in distinguishing good products from bad. If they do a lousy job of this, people stop paying attention to them and they're out of job.

    With Amazon Vine reviewers the incentive is not necessarily to distinguish good from bad. For many, it's likely that they simply want to remain in the program to continue getting free stuff. And it doesn't take a rocket scientist to see that you're probably more likely to remain in the program if you give better reviews to the products of the companies who have paid to be in the program to begin with.

    Look, I'm not questioning the integrity of anyone who is an Amazon Vine reviewer. What I am questioning is the system Amazon has put in place. I was looking at some products that were $200-$300 in price and where if you removed the Amazon Vine reviews it entirely changed the feedback. The company that gave away all these high-priced free products essentially bought their way to a much higher rating than would have been the case had Vine not existed.
  • Bashful Betty
    I have been a Vine reviewer for almost a year and have seen no indication that giving positive reviews will keep someone in the program longer than giving honest reviews, even if they are negative.

    I try to pick things I think I will enjoy so my Vine reviews tend to be positive. But I have given 1, 2 or 3 star reviews to Vine products when that's what I felt the item deserved. Most of my reviews, both Vine and non-Vine, are for books so I have never been offered a $200 item though if I ever am, I hope the price wouldn't affect my ability to review it honestly. Without knowing the products you looked at, I don't know whether to agree or not that those reviews were biased by getting the product free.

    I'm not going to use my name here because people like to give Viners "unhelpful" votes on their reviews just because they are in Vine.
  • Actually, I haven't bothered to order anything several times - they didn't have anything I was interested in reading.

    I do think that the self selection might sometimes lead to more positive ratings, but I think it can also lead to more negative comments too. Consider this: I HAVE to review most of what I select. I forget now what the rules are, but I can't just ignore something because it bores me and I don't want to finish it.

    With Vine, I feel I must review. So now I have a book that is a real yawner, but I have to review it. It's not "bad", but I don't want to say anything nice, so my review drifts more to the negative by itself.

    With a book I buy, I can review it or not review it - if anything, it's THOSE books that tend to get better reviews because I usually don't bother with the mediocre, "it's OK but not great books". If I bought it, I probably only review it if it's good or really bad.

    You may also not realize that most of us don't need Vine to get free books - if we have reviewed a great many, publishers are always sending us offers for review copies. And again, I ignore 90% of those because I'm just not interested or the publisher is pitching something I lack the expertise to review.

    Note also that when I do accept those, I am very likely to review them here as well as at my website. My website has notices that say I may have gotten the book for free - nothing here indicates anything like that. So what's better for you - knowing I got it for free or not knowing?

    I assure you: it makes no difference other than as stated above.
  • I think you are right and this will eventually become a bigger deal once people understand what is going on. It may spark from a specific author or product - or when a review goes horribly negative. I think we give people too much credit for being able to delineate between which reviews come from where - people want information and decision making power and do not want to sort out the "type" of review.

    I do however see this move a fluid and Amazon will react as the program matures.

    When then finally open up the ecosystem to reviews from elsewhere, then you will have even more value to the person about the make the decision to buy something.
  • I agree with you completely Eric. I'd love to see them evolve this. I think some tweaks could be made to Vine to make it significantly better. And I definitely think opening up to outside reviews would be a huge step for Amazon.
  • Facebook User
    Jon, linking to examples on Amazon would back up your contention.
  • Hey Gabe. Going to spend some time on this today or tomorrow. The original products that I came across that spurred this post were competitive to one of my companies so I'd prefer to not reference them but I'll dig up some other links and post them here soon.
  • Dear Jon,

    You are absolutely spot on. Amazon Vine is nothing more than a paid review, which technically is a paid advertisement if you ask me. As the Sales Director for a publishing company I am appalled at this tactic of theirs. Ebay's beauty is in the absolute truth of the reviews and how decentralized they are. Amazon is moving away from their decentralized model into a centralized one and I think it will cost them in the long run. It's the blatant honesty and trust of the open community of the internet that made them what they are today, to undermine that is to undermine themselves.

    Thank you for your insightful post.

    Jennie Lane
  • LL
    I am a 'Viner'. I had written reviews in the past on Amazon simply from the impulse to provide some useful information as I had benefited from reviews I had read on Amazon. At the time of the invite I was in the '4,000s' in the 'classic' reviewer rank. For whatever reason I was invited to particpate.

    While some of what you are concerned about might be happening by and large I think you have over-reacted and certainly over-emphaized, at minimum, some of the potential pitfalls with Vine. It is true that some Viners, not all, are offered pricey electronic items. My first handful of these had various problems and limitations and all received a 1 or 2 star from me. Yet I have also received items that have earned an honest 4 or 5 from me. The one and two star reviews not only did not stop the items being offered for me, As it worked out, I only wrote 4 and 5 star reviews aftear around 4 or 5 1 and 2 star reviews.

    I take writing the review totally honestly to the best of my ability and my experience with the product seriously. And Amazon has taken the step to CLEARLY label when a review is written as part of the program. It is a pretty unmistakable huge green line of text right across the review. Takes zero effort from an Amazon user to find out if it is from a Vine review or not.

    Now one legimate criticism is that a Vine reviewer may not have bought the item so perhaps that would impact a review. However I find in most cases I am not buying the product because I already have say an indoor griller or a shaver or what not. But most of the time it is a product I have experience with by having a similar product and I would certainly consider buying it if my old one stopped working or what not. It is not a random product that I have no interest in.

    The main thrust of this article, though, I do disagree with. Amazon gives you or any user, straight up, the ability to take a Vine review with a grain of salt if you choose to by putting that identifying line in there. However I would venture to say the average Vine review is probably as well thought out if not more so then the average review. Mostly Vine products are new products that the manufactuers want to have feedback for on Amazon. And as a Viner I take writing an honest review into account, not pre-giving a 4 or a 5. I have never done that and I never will. And I personally have never come across a single product that had what you described, a bunch of 4 and 5 Vine reviews and basically 1 and 2 star reviews from non-Vine reviews. Never.
  • Bob
    Yes, I believe some just post glowing review just to get the review process. However, as a vine person I do not always like the product and review it as such..
  • Jon, great post. I agree that a huge part of Amazon's value is the perception that its customer reviews are honest evaluations from real consumers. Nothing irritates me more than wasting money (and time!) on an inferior book, movie, or other product. I always read the reviews carefully to avoid the disappointing items.

    I'm an Amazon Vine reviewer, and I've noticed that several of the recent books I've received through the program were subpar. So, I'm concerned that the program is being over-used by publishers who realize they have a weak book that needs some "help" in the form of positive reviews. On an encouraging note, however, I have noticed that many of the Amazon Vine reviews are negative reviews, at least, more than I'd expect. For example, check out the proliferation of 3-star reviews for this book (most of them submitted by Vine reviewers):

    http://www.amazon.com/Parenting/product-reviews...

    By the way, it costs several thousand dollars (perhaps $10,000 to $15,000, according to my sources) for publishers to enroll books or other product into the Vine program. So, it's a huge moneymaker for Amazon. On the other hand, if it leads to mistrust of their reviews, then it may ultimately cost Amazon more through reduced sales.
  • bee
    I'm part of the Amazon Vine programme. I routinely slate books I don't like, regardless of whether they come through Vine or my regular book-buying sessions, and I see other people doing the same. There is no incentive whatsoever to write positive reviews on Vine - although of course I will if it's something I'm impressed by.

    I also don't think that getting a book for free means my review is going to be somehow less valuable. By that logic, reviews by poorer people would generally be more useful than those by richer people because a book purchase makes up a bigger percentage of their disposable income - or your opinion of a book may be affected by whether you bought it on sale. I just don't think this follows - readers invest a lot of time and thought into the process of READING the book.
  • Wow. You've got an interesting perspective here, but I feel it's incomplete. I'm an Amazon Vine member, so I can speak somewhat from the inside.

    First of all, Vine members are not randomly selected. They are invited based on their frequency of reviews and rank in "top reviewers." Top reviewers, as I'm sure you know, since you commended them, are ranked not just by their number of reviews, but also by the number of "helpful" votes they get. I get way more "helpful" votes on my negative reviews than I do on my positive ones, so there is little incentive for me to write falsely positive reviews.

    Which leads to my second point: not all of us give four- and five-star reviews. It may seem more positively weighted because of the items we choose.

    What you're missing here is how the Vine program actually works. We don't just get free stuff sent to us, thereby enticing rave reviews. Members must specify which items we are interested in, what genres we prefer and such. Amazon then sends us a monthly newsletter of available items, specific to our tastes. We can then choose only two.

    Yes, it may seem Vine reviews are more positive, but it's not because it's Vine and we're getting free stuff. It's because we're reviewing items we are likely to enjoy anyway. They're stuff we would have selected on our own with our own money. We're just taking advantage of the opportunity to get it for free.

    Publishers regularly send free review copies to bloggers, critics, journalist and the like. This is no different. Amazon has made very clear to Vine members that we are to write HONEST, helpful reviews -- not just glowing recommendations.
  • CMM
    I've been in Vine for almost two years. I don't only write high star rating reviews. I also match my content with the stars, unlike some who give mediocre rating in the body of the review but give high star rating.

    Every Vine review is noted as such so you can ignore them if you want.

    I give consistent reviews for my Vine products and the ones I pay for. The only difference is I feel obligated to finish reading books I'd normally stop reading and I have to review items that I don't like, when with customer reviews I usually just review things I want to rave about as I was so happy with the product.

    Vine members are offered things, we don't have to take them. We request things of interest to us. Sometimes we get books we were planning on buying anyway. This explains why we may rate a book highly, we already knew that author's work and we figured we'd like the new one, and we do. Or it is a niche nonfiction book topic that we have a personal interest in.

    From the chatter on the Vine discussion formums I see some do admit to rating highly as it was a free thing albeit being 'average'. Some feel guilty giving an honest review. (I don't.)

    A bigger issue is Amazon has never clearly defined the star rating. I found buried in the ratings system these definitions
    5 stars I love it
    4 stars I like it
    3 stars It's okay
    2 stars I don't like it
    1 star I hate it.

    Among customer reviewers and Vine reviewers there is debate over the meaning of the stars. Some even say they will never publish anything with less than a 3 star even if they hate it.

    It would benefit Amazon to make it more clear as to what they feel the definitions of the stars are. Anyhow when I'm reading reviews before I buy things I focus more on the content not the star rating.

    One more thing. Some who post customer reviews are getting free review copies from other sources and not disclosing that.
  • I'm another Amazon Vine reviewer. Check my reviews - many are not glowing and some are very negative. I haven't received any cash and haven't been offered any - I think you may have misunderstood that part.
  • Dan A. Arnold
    You are so full of s**t. I've been a vine member for about half a year now. I think its a very good program. No body is "Paying me" to give good reviews on things that I don't like.
    Its just like any other time you ask somebody what they think about something. Some are going to tell you they like it and some will tell you they hate it. As for reviews done by vine members if you think there review on an item is off, you can always look that persons profile up and look at all the reviews that person has written, Then decide for your self to trust the reviews they write or not.
    One thing that I really like about the "VINE PROGRAM" is that it gives me a chance to try out something that a lot of times I would like to buy but cant because of my low income. I'm on SS Disability from a back and neck injury. I was a machinist for about 20 years until my accident. Now I will never run a machine again and because of the nerve damage in my back and neck I will be on narcotic pain killers for the rest of my life. Sure, my kind of injury can be fixed. Professional sports players get things like this fixed all the time. But Medicare doesn't cover those kind of operations and I cant pay for them out of my pocket. Because of my injuries I've been laid up for over ten years and feeling useless. Now the VINE program gives me a chance make a difference. I always give a review of exactly what I think of an item. Just because I got it free doesn't influence my opinion of whether I really liked it or not.
    I think that you are against the program just because you haven't been asked to be a member. You're just pissed off because you haven't got any thing free from it and you are just jealous of those people that have.
  • I never accused any Amazon Vine reviewers of receiving cash. Rather, I was stating that there's a difference in how some (not all) people review a product when they are receiving a product for free and that this has the potential to end up tainting the Amazon review distribution. The Amazon review system isn't perfect of course but what's surprising to me is that after taking a number of steps to make it better (which I mentioned in my article) it seems that with Vine the potential exists for that to make it worse.
  • Bek
    Hello!
    Interesting piece..

    I participate in vine, as a consumer/"voice"... I think people are rather honest about the goods they receive and review- I know I am and I have seen plenty of negative reviews by Vine Voices. We are given free goods (we pick from a list, there is a limit, and you have to review 75% of the goods you receive) but we are spending time using the products, thinking about them, writing about them. I know what my time is worth, and depending on the book or product, I am putting much more effort into my end of it than the dollar value of the item. A $2.00 item might take over 2 hours of my time. A $10 book might take 10 hours+ to read and a chunk of time to review. My time is worth much more than $1/hour.

    When I review a product I always keep the dollar value of the product in mind- is it a good value? for a disposable/expendable item (like a juice box or a single granola bar) would I pay the posted dollar amount for that item again? etc... So I do see your point about having the "free goods" reviews next to the "paid for goods" but at the same time one could argue that someone who received the goods as a birthday present shouldn't have their review alongside someone who purchased the goods for their own, personal use.

    Some folks do very in depth reviews and I have never seen anyone hesitate to write a negative review on a product that was low quality or didn't live up to the user's expectations. I think comparing Vine to Payola is inaccurate- as nobody is encouraged to artificially inflate reviews/scores, participants are told to "provide independent and unbiased product reviews on amazon.com and not review any product where you have a conflict of interest". Vine Voices are also prohibited from selling or even sharing the goods with others. It all comes down to the individual Vine Voices taking responsibility for following these rules, and from what I have seen on Amazon.com people seem to take Vine as a very serious responsibility.

    As a consumer, I do find value in some of the Vine Voice reviews- especially the ones that list pros, cons, and even comparison to other, similar products, but I wouldn't base my whole decision on any reviews that were all 5 stars and just an "I like it".

    Frankly, I see more skewing of the ratings from improperly placed and inappropriate regular user reviews. At least the Vine Voices are fairly focused.

    I don't know if they are still posted, but a few months ago someone posted nasty hate messages about Obama on every single listing for books by or recommended by Oprah Winfrey. Disgruntled customers who purchased their goods off-amazon- customers who did not purchase the goods through amazon.com or a company selling through amazon.com-who actually liked the item but leave one star because they weren't happy with the service of the off-amazon merchant...A customer posting a negative review on a blender because his cousin had a toaster by the same company that stopped working after 50 years and the company wouldn't replace it...

    I also think allowing authors and employees- stakeholders in the product- to post reviews also has a much bigger impact as far as reliability.

    Policing regular reviews is a gigantic and endless and possibly unmanageable task- I would like to see a better reporting system for inappropriate or misdirected or biased reviews in place.
  • A Viner
    Until you become a Viner yourself, you know not of what you speak; and just sound like a jealous and envious 10 year old.

    Yes I'm a "Viner" myself and I still buy hundreds of dollars worth of product every month.
  • Robert
    John: I think there is some truth in what you say. I'm a Viner, and I think you'd find it hard to separate my Vine book reviews from my non-Vine ones (and the vast majority are non-Vine). However, I believe there are many cases of the ego-inflated Vine reviewer writing things that, they hope, will lead to even more neat, free items if "people" like their reviews. I don't believe Vine works this way, but when Viners are supposedly selected "for writing accurate and insightful reviews," then some of the Vine-authored reviews astound me.

    Let the buyer beware.
  • Brad
    Hi Jon,

    Certainly, your concerns are valid ones. I too am a member of the vine program. For the most part, I review a lot of things with a very low dollar value that I would not otherwise have purchased. I try hard to write an objective review. If I love it, I'll state that. If it's not so good, I'll share that opinion as well. The great majority of my reviews have been deemed helpful by Amazon users. I think that the number is approximately 95% of my reviews were judged in a favorable way.

    I think that most Vine members are pretty conscentious and try hard to share their true feelings about the product that they are reviewing. As you might imagine, there are exceptions to this, but in general I think that the Viners are pretty fair and objective. If we're not then of course the program is meaningless or worse and I don't think that anyone wants that to be the case.

    I haven't read a lot of reviews where the Vine members give a product 4 and 5 stars and everyone else (or nearly so) rates that product only 1 or 2 stars, as you stated in your blog. I'm guessing that some examples exist though. Perhaps you could link to a few of those to illustrate your point.

    Again, legitimate concerns but I do feel that the Vine writers are trying hard to be honest and helpful. I know that I am.
  • Amazon Top Reviewer
    Dear blogger,
    I am an Amazon top-50 reviewer and a Vine member since last August and all I can say is that you have absolutely no idea what you are talking about.

    First of all, no one is 'obligated' to review anything. Once a month, every Vine member picks from a LIST of items to review. There is no pressure to write good reviews whatsoever. All Amazon wants is for the reviewers to describe their OWN personal experience with the product and for them to review at least 75% of the stuff they get for free.

    Your one-item investigation is worth nothing. Believe it or not, the objectivity of our reviews comes up quite often on the Vine forums and what we find is that Vine members rating of Vine products tends to be in line with what members normally rate products on their non-Vine reviews or, believe it or not LOWER.

    By the way, it may be news to you, but all 'professional' reviews are done on 'free items' the makers or various product send to the professional reviewers. In the case of Amazon, the vendors never know for sure who is going to review their stuff. This can have some unwanted consequences, it's true - Vine members unqualified to review a certain product (think of guys reviewing tampons) may request it because it was 'expensive' - or newer Vine members may THINK that Amazon expects them to write positive reviews but, as you know, nothing is perfect. Not even your shallow, uninformed, waste-of-words, divorced from reality blog paragraph.
  • Amazon Top Reviewer
    Oh, and I forgot.

    The only reason you see ANY traffic to your uninteresting, bland, useless blog is because a Vine member had the misfortune to stumble upon you worthless production and did you a little favor by posting the link at the Vine forum.

    So, don't think of yourself as an emerging celebrity and leader of opinion just because you got a few dozen hits. Chances are your blog will be all forgotten by nearly-everyone in a week or 2. So, enjoy the limelight while it lasts.
  • Margaret
    I've been on Amazon Vine for several months now. If you think all Viners give all products good reviews it simply isn't true. Even on the same products you see a range of stars from different Viners. If you look at more products and more reviews you may see what I'm talking about. Look at Tide Stain Release laundry booster or Ooba Original Hibiscus sparkling beverage or Planters Big Nut Bars or a book like Like the Great World Spin. There are a few Viners who give silly glowing reviews but there are non-Viners who do the same. For the most part Viners take their role seriously. With the exception of electronics which most Viners don't get to review, the product value isn't appropriate compensation for the time spent using and reviewing it. Believe me, most of us do it just because we like trying books, music, and other products before everyone else gets their hands on them and then blabbing about our opinions. Vine reviews are always identified by a huge green "warning" so you can take them or leave them. But if you want to pre-order a book, you can read the range of Amazon Vine reviews or just the couple left by the author and friends and jr. editors.
  • Amazon Top Reviewer
    Margaret,

    It seems like this person has made up his mind and his mind is closed. He is accusing us of taking 'payola'. This is a very serious accusation and Amazon COULD take him to court for suggesting that. I believe it's called 'libel' or 'slander'. I doubt that it will happen but what I meant is that I can't see how you could win this argument with 'facts' because his conclusions are not fact-based.
  • First off, I'm not going to respond to any of the personal attacks here. Those are only embarrassing to those who posted them (which is probably the main reason why no one who posted them was willing to attach their full name to their comments).

    Second, the piling on here is interesting to see. The first 30 or so comments were a good debate on Amazon Vine with potential pros and cons of Vine debated. The last dozen or so comments have been almost entirely from people who are Vine reviewers defending the program (with great vehemence). As one of the commenters mentioned, I guess this was posted in a private forum for Vine reviewers which explains this pretty well.

    My reason for posting this blog originally was to encourage discussion around something that, up until now, hasn't been discussed very much in a public forum. I don't care all that much whether Vine stays or goes. If indeed it's a good program and helps new products receive unbiased reviews which help to inform consumer buying decisions then it's my strong preference that it should stay. However, I'd like to offer some suggestions for improvement to the program:

    #1 - Provide more transparency. Very little is currently being revealed publicly about the program. Amazon has a whopping single paragraph on their website (http://www.amazon.com/gp/vine/help) with information that they are sharing with people. Why so little? When a company unveils a program that could potentially have a huge impact on where people spend their money and only offers a 4 sentence explanation of how that program works it seems as if they might be hiding something.

    In addition, why not share aggregate data about whether Vine reviewers differ significantly from non-Vine reviews. If the average Vine review is 4.5 stars for a product (I'm *not* saying this is the case) and the average non-Vine review is 3.5 stars for a product then there are some big issues with Vine. On the other hand, if the average rating for Vine reviews doesn't differ materially from non-Vine reviews then perhaps Vine isn't a threat at all. Amazon has all that data. Why not make that public?

    #2 - Offer more control. A simple drop-down could allow me to see only non-Vine reviews if I wanted to. Amazon gives all sorts of controls around ratings such as the ability to see reviews of different star levels, most helpful, etc. Why not allow me to not see Vine reviews if I think they might be biased?

    #3 - Engender more trust. A while back I heard that Yelp pays some of its reviewers to write Yelp reviews. I'm not sure if that's true or not but when I heard that I trusted Yelp a little bit less. Not enough to stop using Yelp but it did matter to me. Then there were some stories in the press a few months back of people "paying their Yelp bill" (through advertising on Yelp) and having negative reviews deleted from their profile.

    Companies that rely upon user-generated reviews have to be really careful about stuff like this. Amazon for a long time has been generally thought to have reviews that were, on the whole, pretty accurate. Sure there were some reviews that weren't but for the most part they've done a wonderful job ensuring the quality of the reviews (through some of the measures I mentioned before like RealNames, most helpful, top reviewers, etc.). Vine seems very different than these measures and a step in opposite direction.

    I love Amazon and I buy a ton of stuff there. I value the reviews and the reviewers. My concern is that when you introduce things into user-generated reviews that allow for the possibility of bias it can become a slippery slope. That's all.
  • Amazon Top Reviewer
    Dear blogger,

    This is probably my last contribution to your paragraphs so you can feel safe from now on. Now, discussing your last comments.

    "f the average Vine review is 4.5 stars for a product (I'm *not* saying this is the case) and the average non-Vine review is 3.5 stars for a product then there are some big issues with Vine."

    Nice little strawman you are building but, as far as we learned by debating ourselves inside our secret and secretive Vine forums, we tend to grant FEWER stars to Vine products than we do to the non-Vine items we review.

    Are you surprised?

    Believe it or not, there's even a reasonable and plausible explanation for that. Let me see if you could guess why it is so. It shouldn't be too hard to figure this out.

    As far as your request that Amazon hides Vine reviews... maybe you didn't notice but ALL Vine reviews happen to be CLEARLY LABELED as VINE REVIEWS. What else would you like Amazon to do for you? Even better, Vine members have the 'Vine badge' attached to all of their reviews. Some of them chose not to show it but the vast majority do so you can tell most reviews written by Vine reviewers even when they are not reviewing Vine-supplied items.

    As far as your request that Amazon compiles some stats for your use... ALL the information that you seem to want is publicly available. You are free to commission a study and you can then present the stats to the world. All the data is there, ready for you to mine and enjoy so, splurge a little.

    I do have ONE request to you and, if you provide the information, maybe I'll come back and comment again. Could you, please, identify the product where you found consistently glowing Vine reviews and consistently disparaging reviews from everyone else? This stands as the cornerstone of everything that follows in your paragraphs so, if you wish to establish some credibility, let's look at your 'data'. Not that one datapoint makes a basis for your far-reaching conclusions but it would be interesting nevertheless.
  • OK, here's an example of one of the products I noticed this early on which prompted the post. The reason why I was initially reluctant to post this is because the product is one that is somewhat competitive to one of the companies I am involved with and at the same time sold (through an affiliate program) through another company I am involved with. But with that full disclosure in effect, here it is:

    http://www.amazon.com/Rosetta-Stone-Version-Spa...

    Here is the distribution of reviews for non-Vine reviewers (based on a manual tally):

    5 stars: 37
    4 stars: 20
    3 stars: 6
    2 stars: 6
    1 star: 15

    Here is the distribution for Vine reviews:

    5 stars: 27
    4 stars: 16
    3 stars: 1
    2 stars: 1
    1 star: 0

    The average review for non-Vine reviews is 4.53. The average review for Vine reviews is 3.69.

    While 15 non-Vine reviewers of 84 (17%) give the product one star, none of the 45 Vine reviews give the product one star. And only 2 of 45 Vine reviews are less than 4 stars compared with 27 of 84 non-Vine reviews.

    Look, maybe this product is an abnormality. Maybe because it's a high-dollar product the reviews from Vine reviews are less critical (after all, at least 45 people got a $450 product for free, that doesn't suck). I don't know. But my point is that if someone was looking at this product and they didn't have an understanding of what a "Vine review" was they would get a different sense of the product because of the inclusion of the Vine reviews.
  • Amazon Top Reviewer
    Thank you for posting the source of your puzzlement.

    First of all, the difference between the 2 classes is .84 stars, not really something to scream about. But, as you know, there are other ways to do stats so let's do a simple one.

    68% of the NON-VINE reviewers granted 4-5 stars. It's not like the 95% of Viners who went with the 4-5 stars but it's an over two thirds of PAYING customers that agree with the vast majority of Vine reviewers.

    In all fairness, a product such as this is hard to evaluate though Vine because it should take some time and motivation to fully use it before writing a review and, I WILL share a secret with you: there is SOME pressure for Vine members, especially the new ones to post their reviews quickly so this may not be a typical Vine item.

    In addition, many of the non-Vine negative reviews had to do with the cost and and some 3 of the one-stars with the item's 'delivery'. The Vine reviewers tend not to consider 'price' when reviewing. It happens to be part of Amazon's reviewing guidelines. So, the Vine reviewers tend to focus on features. If you want my opinion, I personally prefer that. Prices change and I can see exactly what the price is and I know exactly what I can afford.

    Finally, there is some internal debate inside Vine circles of what a one-star or a two-star mean. Amazon seems to view 1-2-3 stars as critical reviews and 4-5 stars as endorsements. In Vine circles the consensus seems to be that you don't grant a 1-star unless the item is so bad, you risk injury or some other form of harm when using it. Personally I don't fully agree and I do grant 1-stars on falsely-advertised products as well but I agree that there is some reluctance to grant 1-star on a product that actually works. Do you REALLY think that the Rosetta Stone is a one-star product? As in totally crappy? As in, maybe, you actually FORGET the foreign language when using the Stone rather than learning it? 18% of the non-Vine reviewers thought so but can they possibly be right?

    Many of the negative Rosetta reviews justified the few stars granted because they could not become fluent in the language, could not do it quickly, (one) because he was FORCED to use it, one because he was pushing another product or because the learning was hard. I do agree that the Rosetta advertising hints that they can make the learning 'easier' and that you can become 'conversant' in a foreign language but I don't remember them ever claiming to make you fluent in a foreign language in a short time and with little or no effort.

    So, to conclude, THE VAST MAJORITY of both Vine and non-Vine reviewers are granting 4 or 5 stars to the package. In fact, 44% of non-Vine reviewers are granting the product 5 stars. The Vine reviewers scores are higher on average but a .84 stars difference is not something that would worry me much. The 18% of non-Viners granting one-stars perhaps did not have a full understanding of what a one-star meant. I found many well-written, honest and some very thorough reviews from both Vine and non-Vine reviewers and there were quite a few terrible reviews on both sides. I found ZERO evidence of what you call 'payola'.

    If the Vine reviews were missing, you would still have OVER TWO THIRDS positive reviews with some of the negative ones citing issues such as price or delivery difficulties so I can't say how MORE REVIEWS which, believe it or not, it's what Vine is about can be bad.

    So, here, this is my analysis of your one-data-point conclusion.
  • Bashful Betty
    It was helpful to have an actual example. I want to start by saying I do not have a review for this product and have not used it.

    I would toss out at least half of the 1 star reviews because they don't reflect the use of the product. A couple of them are complaining because they can't re-sell the product (which is normal for software licenses) and a couple complain because of problems with the person (not Amazon) from whom they bought the product. There were a few others that seemed more like computer problems than how the product worked.

    Just based on reputation of the company and the product (outside of looking at the Amazon reviews), I would expect this product to get mostly 4 and 5 star reviews so I'm not sure it is the best example of problems with the Vine program.

    I'm guessing what I and the other Viners who wrote here are not going to convince you, but really there is no pressure from Amazon or product manufacturers to give good reviews to the products we get. If you want to give less weight to a Vine review because you think it is tainted, that is you right. But I think in many cases you'd be missing some very well written and well considered evaluations of products. And one should always read a selection of positive and negative reviews because people have different perspectives and what you think is great someone else might thinks is terrible.
  • Confused
    Is this your one example? That prompted your entire post? You're coming off as jealous. I don't understand why you are threatened by this program. How do you know that lower rated reviews would eliminate reviewers from future products? Is there anyway you can state that for sure, or is it an assumption?

    It seems as if those who are vine memebers have an established track records of hundreds of helpful review votes. So hundreds of people must have found their reviews helpful at one time or another. Track records that have been established over years and countless hours of offering an initially unpaid service.

    I'm sure there is abuse as there is with every program, and sure you can pick it apart with possibilities and what if's? But you can do that with anything. More data please, and data that actually supports your position if you can find it.
  • Amazon Top Reviewer
    Oh, and one more thing.

    PAYOLA IS A CRIME.

    Are you accusing the Amazon corporation and the Vine members of engaging in criminal activities? Please respond.
  • Outside of the record industry, as far as I'm aware, payola is *not* a crime. That's why companies like PayPerPost can exist. I'm not sure there's anything else to say here.
  • wick
    OH MY GAWD, I just noticed this. I can't believe that 'Amazon Top Reviewer' typed this in all seriousness.

    >>Are you accusing the Amazon corporation and the Vine members of engaging in criminal activities?<<

    You sad, sick calf.
  • Bashful Betty
    I think you are wrong about why many of the Vine reviewers commenting here are not using their real names. If we did, I could pretty much guarantee that our reviews would suddenly get a flood of "unhelpful" votes from your readers who agree with you. It has been noted that Vine reviews tend to attract unhelpful votes just because people think they are shills for the manufacturer or because people are jealous someone got a free thing. I in particular don't want to attract negative attention to my reviews.

    I've seen some very insightful Vine reviews and some that are garbage. You may be right that some Vine reviewers are over eager to give a better review to try to get more "good" stuff. But from the perspective of someone in the program, I think that is a small percentage and more than outweighed by the people who give bad reviews for reasons that are unrelated to the quality of the product. I definitely saw a lot of that in the 1 star reviews for the Rosetta stone product you mentioned.
  • Amazon Top Reviewer
    Betty, I wouldn't go that far.

    I bet it's mostly 'us', criminal, bought and paid for Viners looking at this blog.

    Anyways, our reviews, the good ones, are read by thousands of people who make better informed decisions because we take the time to evaluate the products and write our views. How many people do you think are helped in any way for reading this blog?

    There's another way to look at this. Of all the votes 'we' receive, the vast majority are positive. 87% of the thousands who voted on my reviews thought that they were helpful and my helpful percentage is quite low by Vine standards. I bet that you are in the 80-90% range as well.

    This person seems to suggest that reviews from people who have 80-90% 'helpful' ratings by the real Amazon customers who read them should be hidden?

    That's bizarre, don't you think?
  • Bashful Betty
    A.T.R., I didn't want to guess how many readers this blog has (other than the Viners who've discovered this post) nor did I want to take the chance that his fans would go to my Amazon profile and neg my reviews to death for challenging his assumptions. That (and my general skittishness about using my full real name (not Betty) on the internet) is why I posted under a fake name.
  • wick
    Please, oh gosh, 'Amazon Top Reviewer", do get over your ridiculously high-minded self. Very few people take the 'Amazon Vine' reviews seriously--I mean, other than those also in the program, who can't seem to refrain from giving 'shout-outs' by way of thumbing up the reviews from others in the program, and by commenting on the reviews from others in the Vine. We all know, for one, that it's not until you make some comment on the current freebie that you've been sent that you're eligible to be sent the next (which is why we see a flurry of reviews made solely by 'Vine' reviewers on, say, some obscure brand of Omega-3-enriched cranberry syrup clustered around a 3-day period in early June.)

    We're aware that you know, so to speak, where your bread is buttered. You'll see that Vine reviews are not well received, for one. For another, anyone who chooses to identify herself as an 'Amazon Top Reviewer', in *whatever* context, has not lived a life I would especially envy.
  • Sara Miller
    It is a neat perk for consistently helpful and dedicated reviewers. There is no controversy here.
  • LL
    John,

    Your 2 posts today, July 2nd,actually weaken most of your points if the Rosetta Stone was the best you could come up with.

    As was pointed out nearly half of 1 star reviews did not actually review the product exactly. They were about shipping or cost which while an important consideration is something every potential buyer can evaluate for themselves. The Vine numbers were hardly out of whack with non-Viners.

    Also you completely failed to mention the VALUE and Quality of the reviews. What about that? Was the average Vine review more informative than the non-Vine reviews? I am a Viner and 'biased' but I find the average Vine review to be of better quality and more informative than the average review. In general if it is a positive review or negative it is spelled out as to why.

    Lastly your quest about Amazon to disclose Vine reviews is hilarious and absurd at the same time. For goodness sakes man THEY POST A HUGE GREEN LINE right across the top of each Vine review. It can not be missed. You seem to totally ignore that every time you post here.

    Yeah the personal attacks were wrong, of course, but my honest opinion is the more you post, the weaker your points become.
  • Bellatrix
    Another Viner here. Personally, it bugs me to see some other people in the program be so rude to you. It's not needed. You are simply mistaken, and there is no reason for people to get defensive over it. I understand why they're angry, because it really sucks to be accused of things that are antithetical to your nature.

    I do find it interesting that Jon talks about personal attacks without realizing that Vine members are feeling personally attacked -- and, in some cases, lashing out because of it.

    As others have said, there is no incentive to do positive reviews. The only incentive is to review at least 75% of the items, or the reviewer can't select new items. Can't blame Amazon for that.

    Getting items for free doesn't make me inflate the rating. Depending on the quality of an iten, it does occasionally make me think I dodged a bullet. I then write a review that might help others dodge that same bullet.

    If there's one thing Viners tend to be, it's earnest. They usually take the thing seriously so, if anything, they're giving their reviews a lot more consideration than your average person.

    Can I say that all the reviewers grade fairly? Nah, I'm sure there are a few with some strange agenda or belief, but I believe that the program actually protects from that in most cases. We get the item for free, but we can rate as we'd like -- as opposed to friends, kindergarten teachers, and parents of the writer.

    Viners form a community. A sometimes fractious, hostile community not unlike something in a Shirley Jackson story, but still a community. Amazon reviewers in general are too large to be a true community, but Viners have a board, a badge, and an invitation that tends to imbue them with Boy Scout like diligence about concepts like honesty and fairness. They're singled out as an example of a good reviewer, and so they want to be just that. They have strong reasons, psychologically, to be more helpful than usual.

    In short, I'd tend to trust a Vine review more, not less.
  • Hey guys. I'm done here. This has turned from a reasonable debate about Vine into an onslaught of anonymous comments from participants in the Vine program who are convinced of its worthiness. If you want to continue the conversation you're free to but this is my last comment on the post.
  • Bellatrix
    So, you're upset that people with firsthand knowledge of the program came here and disagreed with you? 'K.

    For the record, I think my post was very "reasonable," what with telling you I thought people were being too rude. I guess the unreasonable part was telling you that you're mistaken and why.

    No reason to mess up a vague conspiracy theory with facts. I understand. :)
  • Hey Bellatrix, it wasn't your post in particular (I realize that I should have replied to the post rather than your individual comment). It was just the accumulation of the last 30 or so posts which appear to be all from people who have come over here from the same set of forums and how one-sided the conversation has become because of this.
  • Bellatrix
    What would make it more rounded? More people who are not in the program guessing what it's like? I accept there might be people who have something valuable to add who aren't in the program, but it seems to me that what's disappointing you about this thread is that there's nobody supporting your theory. The thread is no longer worth it to you, because there is nobody with the smoking gun you want and a whole lot of (admittedly anecdotal) evidence that you're barking up the wrong oak.

    I understand why you're frustrated, and I mean that with no snark. You advanced a theory and all evidence is that you were mistaken. I would want to bail on the topic too.

    I also get how you didn't foresee so many people from the other side showing up -- a link being posted. For the record, the link wasn't posted with malice, but rather because the person was upset to have his or her character maligned. Because the internet makes things anonymous, it probably didn't occur to her that you were questioning the integrity of a whole lot of people.

    No honest person, and most Viners seem to be ridiculously honest, wants his or her motives called into question. This is why you have 30+ posts from people who feel libeled, and less responses from people who haven't been accused of being shills.
  • Amazon Top Reviewer
    Jon,

    Please don't play the hurt albatross part. You have my email address if you feel like communicating with me privately. It's the email address I reserved for 'junk' but don't worry, I'll get it if you feel like writing me in private. Personally, I don't care if your 'real' name is Jon or Ricardo or Jolissa. What difference does it make? For me, you are the guy who draws conclusions based on irrelevant 'facts' and makes irresponsible comments, calling people he doesn't know 'criminals' or maybe 'cheats'.

    You, are accusing some 2000 or so reviewers (real people, most of us) and one great corporation of engaging in criminal or immoral behavior and you provide no facts to back your serious accusations.

    I don't want to get personal but... SHAME ON YOU. Your comments are irresponsible. How would YOU feel if I called you 'a thief' or worse based on nothing?

    And, in addition to being uninformed you are lazy too. You are demanding that Amazon provides you with data that's all out there and there's more that you seem to want. Amazon identifies every Vine member, for each of them you have a history of all of their reviews and you can even determine exactly which products they received 'for free' from Amazon if they actually reviewed them. You have their helpful/not helpful vote counts on their reviews, the Amazon customers comments to their reviews and their replies and so forth. Could you state what else would you like Amazon to give you before you can begin to base your so-called conclusions on anything other than your infertile imagination?

    As for your suggesting that Amazon hides the Vine reviews so your uber-sensitive eyes don't get to see them - HOW LARGE A TYPEFACE and HOW BOLD A BOLDFACE should the "Customer review from the Amazon Vine™ Program (What's this?)" disclaimer should be?
  • Amazon Top Reviewer
    P.S.

    I am sorry if I sound a little rude but I tend to react this way when people accuse me of engaging in criminal behavior with no evidence to back their accusations. In real life I could do worse.

    Okay, I'm done.

    Good luck with your investigative blogging. You'll need a lot of it.
  • wick
    Stop being alarmist. I wish we could personally accuse of you of being a freebie-hungry sloth IRL but the identity you've chosen doesn't exactly render you unique.
  • Synonymous
    As a new Vine member, not only am I ashamed to be in the same program as you, I am ashamed to be in the same *phylum* as you.
  • Amazon Vine Reviewer
    I'm an Amazon Vine reviewer on the co.uk site. The reviews I write for the Vine program are as honest and accurate as my normal reviews. No one gets kicked off the program for giving a Vine item a 1 star review. I have given 1,2,3,4 and 5 star reviews for Vine items.
    You are right to point out we haven't parted with our hard earned cash for these items but we do take the price into account when reviewing. If something is overpriced it will be reflected in the review.
    Have a look at the book 'Bugz' on amazon.co.uk. Vine reviewers called it out for what it is - 1 star vanity publishing, while previously it just had some glowing 5 star reviews.
  • Layne
    I'm a long-time Amazon customer (10+ years) and am not, and never have been, a member of the Amazon Vine program.

    I find it interesting that you just recently noticed this program. In your post you almost came off as feeling like Amazon had gotten one over on you because you were unaware of the program. Hopefully that's not the case, because if you use Amazon somewhat frequently you see Vine reviews and Vine Voice badges all over the place. Or at least, I do....

    A little background: I rely heavily on Amazon reviews when purchasing all sorts of items. I go to Amazon for everything. Books, movies, electronics (my LCD TV, DVR, PS3, DSLR, etc.), video games, appliances, food, toiletries, home goods, garden supplies, you name it... Amazon is usually the first place I reference and often end up buying from. My point here is that I've seen a wide variety of reviews (both Vine and non-Vine) from a wide variety of people.

    And let me just say, there are a lot of STUPID people out there. Sometimes I can't believe what I'm reading. Luckily, I can mark those reviews as not helpful. And on the other hand, there are some really smart, insightful, analytical people writing extremely knowledgeable and helpful reviews. Those stupid people can skew the star ratings, but I read all the reviews so am capable of sorting through and evaluating the information myself.

    I get how you came up with your theory. I think you're probably more concerned with the POTENTIAL problems that like programs could cause. But I think after more consideration you'll find you disagree with your own initial hypothesis. Here's why:

    1) You seem to ignore the reviewer quality issue. Amazon chooses reviewers who have a proven track record of high quality, very helpful reviews. These are people who, for no reason other than to share their opinion and be helpful to others in the community, have taken the time to write numerous in-depth, insightful reviews over the years. These are people who understand what goes into a good review, and obviously take a lot of pride in their opinions and reviews. In the vast majority of instances, these reviewers are not going to give out 4- and 5-star reviews all willy nilly. Doing so would risk tarnishing their reputation as a reviewer, which, as previously mentioned, they take great pride in.

    Your theory would hold a lot more weight if Amazon chose randomly among all reviewers. In that case, it would be useless. There are just so many stupid people out there that a program like this would collapse rather quickly with low quality, greedy reviewers.

    But again, I just want to emphasize what I think is the main flaw in your theory: The way Amazon selects Vine members absolutely cannot be ignored. The quality of Vine Voices is the fountainhead of the program.

    2) I agree with you about how much connected consumption has benefited consumers. I love it! However, I also believe greatly in personal responsibility. If someone doesn't know what the bold, green Vine Voice disclaimer means, they can choose to click for more information. If they don't and remain ignorant and buy a product they end up hating because of a glowing Vine Voice review, well, quite frankly that's their problem.

    Every consumer has the personal responsibility to make themselves INFORMED CONSUMERS. They are also solely responsible for making their own informed, educated decisions. But most people don't do this. That's one reason we see 1-star reviews complaining about something that was clearly stated in the product description, or for some other ridiculous reason.

    3) The reason you've seen no outrage from any major bloggers is because there is nothing to be outraged about. Amazon fully discloses Vine Voice reviews. If you think they're useless, scroll past them.

    As for the star ratings, it's already been pretty much shown that they aren't affected much one way or another by Vine Voices, with the exception of your Rosetta Stone example. But it's quite obvious that the reason for this is that most of the non-Vine 1- and 2-star reviews are from stupid and/or ill-informed consumers. For example, there are multiple negative reviews from people who paid $500 for a product they later found they weren't allowed to resell. They didn't understand their $500 was purchasing a software license. Yes, RS has a stricter policy than most, but before spending $500(!!!) those consumers were responsible for educating themselves about what they were spending their money on. They didn't, and now they're upset. I have no sympathy.

    The Vine Voices, on the other hand, did not pay for the product and therefore are not upset that they're prevented from reselling it. They are reviewing the product based on the product's merit, not on whether they thought it was too expensive now that they realized a month later they spent $500 and still aren't fluent in Spanish or a year later that they can't resell it.

    Well alright, this got way too long so it's probably a mess. But hopefully you get my drift. As long as Amazon is selective about the reviewers they pick, their Vine program is just fine by me.
  • Phil
    I was invited to join Amazon Vine about a year ago. I take your point that reviewers could be being 'bribed' but I think you have missed a point. Vine reviewers are selected on the quantity and usefulness of their reviews. If you simply give a positive review to a crap product, nobody will find the review useful.

    Personally I am honest about the items I review on Vine. I only order items I can use, and I only post a review once I've read the book, used the software, etc. Not many of my reviews get five stars. If there is a flaw in a product, I will point it out.

    In summary - people get selected for vine because they (a) post reviews and (b) the reviews are flagged as useful to others. The type of person who fulfils both criteria is unlikely to be swayed by the 'free stuff' mentality.

    Of course, Amazon have all the stats available to them, so they can analyse the vine reviews and responses to them. If they want people to rely on their review system (and in particular vine reviews) then they will remove people from the program if their reviews are generally over-hyped and not flagged as useful.

    Finally, all vine reviews are flagged, so if people are concerned about impartiality, they can simply ignore vine reviews altogether.
  • Name
    I understand where you are coming from, and in full disclosure, I am an Amazon Vine member. I agree that many Vine reviewers tend to overrate products they have been given. However, many non-Vine reviewers do it, too. I have seen authors writing 1 star reviews for their competitor's books, and 5 star rewiews of their own. They get their friends and family in on the mix, and now the whole thing is warped. Never mind those who post 1 star reviews because the seller (not always Amazon) didn't ship the item on time or at all, or it took a week to get there, and so forth. I think the number/ratio of Vine reviewers who rate a product higher are probably right in line with the other scenarios I posted above and others I didn't mention.

    All of this hasn't changed my practice of reading all the reviews posted (when feasible) for a product I am interested in and any comments as well. I have to discern why the person rated the item and said what they did about it, and sometimes I will compare that to reviews from other places as well. I don't post many 4 star reviews and I don't think I've ever posted a 5 star one yet for products under the Vine program.

    So basically, I'm saying that one has to understand that not all reviews are fair & balanced, whether they come from a Vine reviewer or not. And while I can't speak on behalf of all the other members, I don't judge a product differently because it was "free". I don't even participate every month because I don't need needless "stuff" to clutter my life and sometimes I'm just too busy to worry with it. If something appeals to me, I'll try it out. Anyway, thanks for the article nonetheless.
  • catharineg
    If u dont trust the program just disregard the reviews--pretty simple

    I also dont see why u dont wish to disclose the product that made u think the program was bad.
  • Octopus Pie
    I don't know... you must not be looking at all the reviews out there on all the products. Yes, there are a lot of people who vote highly because they haven't had to purchase the products, but there are still a quite a few people on vine voice who aren't afraid to give out bad reviews for products that deserve them.
  • Octopus Pie
    Also, I would wager that even if the vine didn't exist, the ratings would probably stay the same. From what I've seen of vine reviews when I've seen them, they tend to mirror the different reviews of the average non-vine reviewer.

    I can safely say that I've seen more non-vine shill reviews than I have vine shill reviews. What puzzles me is why you aren't going on about Harriet Klausner. Now if you want to say that someone's getting payola for rubbish reviews, you should see hers. She never gives less than a 4 star review for anything & never posts a review that shows that she actually read the book. In fact, she's pretty well known for posting reviews where the information was incorrect. And yet, there's Harriet Klausner appreciation societies across the internet...

    Either Klausner is a corporate shill who writes fake reviews in hopes of getting free stuff or she is the front for several book publishing companies who post 4-5 star reviews in order to fake the ratings. I think she's someone you should be focusing on- not the vine voice. They're a rather honest enough bunch for the most part, although there are some people who are focused on the payola.
  • Thanks for the analysis. I was just solicited to join Vine and accepted. I'm quite curious to see how it works. I was given about five pages of books to choose from and limited to two choices. Undoubtedly the publishers pay money to be on the list in hopes of good promotions for the book. If I do end up reviewing the books, do you think stating "I was given a free copy of this book to review by Amazon/the publisher" at the beginning of my review would address some of the conflict-of-interest problems?
  • IM
    Just because a person gets a product for free does not mean they will like it, or review it favorably even if they didn't. I am a Vine reviewer and wrote negative comments about an item, and gave it only 3 out of 5 stars. Why? Because it wasn't very good. The fact I got it for nothing doesn't affect that... Likewise, one of the books was excellent, and the review also reflected accordingly. I don't see the logic behind your article, especially when a person's continuation in the program has nothing to do with the favorability of the reviews, but rather, how useful they were to people. If there were incentives to positive comments, I'd agree with your article, but unless other Vine people are getting something I'm not, then I just don't see it.
  • Name
    I am actually a member of amazon vine. And you are partially correct. Because I didn't pay for the product, I tend to review it on its merits alone while also commenting on whether I think the price is fair. But a fair price is only based on one's ability to pay. So while one person may think a pair of $50 earbuds is ridiculous no matter how good they sound, someone else may be willing to spend hundreds of dollars but just want the best product. And in that case, the person who is reviewing the product on its merits and not simply price is probably writing the more honest review.

    And let's be serious here. There are a TON of crappy reviewers on Amazon. If you see people giving a product 4 and 5 stars and others giving it 1 star, chances are those 1 star reviews are garbage. It's as if some people just don't realize there are 3 more stars in between 5 stars and 1 star. Some people only see in black and white instead of shades of gray.

    Many of the 1 star reviews on amazon are completely unfounded and baseless. I have personally commented on quite a bit of them. Many have nothing to do with the product and instead talk about how the return process was bad or they received it later than they wanted or comment on the vendor. It also depends on the product and the demographic that product falls into. Video games are a great example. Some games have DRM and people feel compelled to rate the game terribly based on the DRM rather than rating the actual game itself.

    Amazon has gone through a process to choose its vine members. Not all of them are going to live up to the standard, but I think the majority of vine reviewers are at least going to take the time to write a responsible review of the product. At least I do and I've seen many others that do also.
  • Rick
    Sorry, Jon, but you are off base. I can understand your point of view, except it's not true. I'm an Amazon Vine participant and there is NO pressure whatsoever to give a positive review. I give the same review I would give if I had simply purchased the product. Many of my Vine reviews have been negative.
    When you ask "Am I making too big of a deal about this?", I'd say ABSOLUTELY. I think your thoughts on this matter, while potentially valid, are a figment of your imagination. Maybe you didn't take a large enough sampling of Vine reviews on Amazon. You would need to do it scientifically by not only using a LARGE sample across the web site, but also you need to take into account the average non-Vine review for each product you include in the sample.
  • cmerced
    Jon, I also think you are off base re "And it doesn't take a rocket scientist to see that you're probably more likely to remain in the program if you give better reviews to the products of the companies who have paid to be in the program to begin with."

    This is not true, otherwise, with the amount of negative reviews I've written, I'd be out of the program! In fact, I have not heard of viners being booted out of Vine (maybe those who were selling on Ebay, but havent heard about that either).

    I have been in the Vine Program over a year, I have never felt any pressure whatsoever to give a positive review. And considering the content of the Amazon Vine Forum for its members, neither do they.
  • Hawk
    I've seen many (and written several) Vine reviews that are two and three stars. Your aggregate sampling is only good for paranoia not actual conclusions.
  • Laura
    Yet another viner here (very late to the party)...I must say, when looking at amazon reviews myself, I start by looking at the average stars a product gets, but then I focus on the content of the reviews, often checking to see how many reviews a reviewer has written as well, and discounting the ones by people who have only written ONE review ever, and paying attention to the ones that actually say something useful about the product.

    But really I didn't want to comment on Amazon Vine but on Yelp. I was a member of Yelp Elite for two years. They don't pay Elite yelpers to write reviews, but they DO have parties for them at various restaurants and chocolate factories and art galleries, etc. These parties are full of lots of free food and alcohol and they try to show the yelpers a REALLY GOOD TIME while they get to hang out with all their (mostly 20-something) yelper elite friends. (I mention the age because I think at that age they may be more impressed by getting something for free.) Then they go home and try to outdo each other writing glowing reviews about what a great time they had and then rating each others reviews U/F/C (which raises the reviews in the rankings). Well, 90% of them do anyway. It's a totally artificial environment in which to review a place, but it's a great idea for businesses that are flagging in the ratings department...it boosts them up at least for a while. Eventually they will settle right back to their old average.

    So, compared to that, I think the Vine program does a pretty good job of doing what it's supposed to...getting some useful reviews out there for participating products so that people considering buying something have some data to help them make a decision.
  • Wilma
    Another viner here & like many before me, I'm not going to post my name because I'm afraid of people voting my reviews down out of spite.

    I am a reviewer. I do get free stuff (mostly books). I am not afraid to give something a negative review. In fact, out of the first 8 reviews I did for vine, I gave three of those books bad reviews because they frankly deserved them. It doesn't matter if I'm getting the book for free, nor am I afraid of having my vine status revoked for not giving a happy positive review. (If others haven't been thrown off for their negative reviews then mine surely aren't.)

    You sound like you are just being a party pooper. Writing reviews for vine is fun & for the most part, harmless. Sure, there are people who will post all 4 & 5 star reviews, but you'll find people doing that for the same books & not getting anything for it. I've lurked on the message boards for the vine members & trust me... the other viners are EXTREMELY harsh towards anyone they think is abusing the system or only gives out 4 or 5 star reviews for everything they've done. The boards will have whole threads about how terrible some specific products are & there's one thread that's a constant- a general thread about how bad some of the products offered were.

    So yeah... your blog is full of hot air & jealousy over other people getting free stuff. (I know you said that you aren't jealous, but sweetie... you sure do seem to have a bee in your bonnet about us!)
  • Laura
    Hi, I've been in the Amazon Vine program for awhile now. I've been writing reviews for long before I got into the program, and that's probably why they invited me.

    I always do my best to give people my honest opinion about a book or product, whether it be a popular opinion or not.

    One of the books I received free through Vine was "naturally thin". The majority of the reviews for the book are positive, I however, thought it was trash. I slammed that book in my review, and my review is currently the top review for that book:
    http://www.amazon.com/Naturally-Thin-SkinnyGirl...

    There are some people whose reviews are bland and obviously biased, but most good reviewers with high ranking are very honest, and that's the way they got that high rank. Just something to think about.
  • one Vine reviewer
    I'm a Vine reviewer. Here is one example of my reviewing & book reading. I needed a book for my new DSLR camera. The user manual that came with it is ridiculous & not useful. I had a hard time shopping on Amazon for the book as every book on this camera model had raving reviews. I then went to a local B&N to look at the books side by side. I had no favorite author or anything like that. I found the book that looked best to me, could be read easily (not tiny font) and useful tips etc. I love the book but had not read it cover to cover so did not review it. Later Vine offered me another author's book on the same camera model. I requested it, figuring more information was better and hey, it's free. So that book I read cover to cover (not easy for a how to manual). I then compared the two books side by side as I felt the Vine book stunk and wanted to verify my suspicions. I wound up reviewing the Vine book with 2 stars = I don't like it. I still have not reviewed as a regular customer review, the other book I love as to be honest I put my review time to the book with a deadline prompting me.

    I have gotten more picky about what I request from Vine as I find it torture to force myself to read a book I'm only half way interested in and only got it due to it being free. So I'm even checking to see what others on the web say about the book or if the author is credible in the field before I request the Vine book. Due to this lately most of my Vine books have gotten 4 or 5 stars as I was careful on the book picking. (Today I decided not to request a cookbook about desserts after seeing it is deemed mediocre by most reviewers.)

    I have too many books in my TBR pile I already own and more on a list of what I'd borrow from the library (to read free) if I only had the time.

    So not all Vine reviews I do are glowing neither are many 2 or 1 star either.
  • Bailey
    Eh, not so sure about that. I'm in the program and just wrote my first two reviews -- a 4-star, and a 3-star.

    The program explicitly tells users their reviews are not edited, there's no pressure to write positive / negative ones, etc. If I get something great, I'll leave a good review, but if my item doesn't impress me, I'll leave lukewarm or negative ones.

    It's not that Amazon is PAYING people with 'free stuff' for positive reviews... more probably, people feel more positive about items they got for free, and can overlook small problems that might bug them more if they'd paid for them.
  • I would disagree with your post that Vine is harmful to consumers in ANY way.

    I am an Amazon Vine member. Amazon does not influence me one way or another. As a member, I'm given a usually large list of products to choose from. Usually, I can pick 2. So I'm already picking things I mainly want. Furthermore, you may not realize it, but most of the things we are offered, are offered based on our purchasing profile. Amazon KNOWS who I am, they KNOW I am an IT worker, with an interest in security. Therefore, I am offered a lot of security type software.

    Then I get it, try it, and write the review. I have given some low reviews. I don't think I've ever given ANYTHING a 1 star, but I know I've given a few 2 and 3 stars.

    Also, we don't GET the full product usually. For instance, if the product is a 6 pack, we might only get one. If it is a book, a lot of the times we'll get a plain cover advance copy. In other words, there's not always any value there, past the read.

    Beneath my review, it will say AMAZON VINE so Amazon is being very open. They are not hiding anything.

    You can bet, if I don't like it, I will say, I don't like it, or there's better out there. I've done it. Amazon does not TOUCH my reviews. I blasted one program for being a memory hog. They didn't edit it!

    I've got one review out there, and like, 2 out of 64 people found it helpful. What's wrong with this review? Nothing, it's just a book for athiests, and I'm not one, so I gave it a low rating, and the fanbase did not approve. Fanbase votes happen a LOT in reviewing books.

    Amazon Vine, to me, mainly seems interested in getting real people to review honestly.
    They never limit reviews to just Viners either. Most of the time, we just get brand new items so we can give folks a head's up.

    Look at this product:
    http://www.amazon.com/Seventh-Generation-Soften...

    You will see a LOT of Viners did NOT like this product, and SAID SO.
  • Interesting post and interesting commentary that followed. Very colourful, indeed and somewhat entertaining. I guess it's fair to say that the article here was relinked and I found it via a new discussion in the Vine Forums, where again people want to discuss this a little bit more.

    Speaking for myself, the majority of the Vine reviews that I've written have probably been negative or very critical. It's amazing how much worthless stuff companies will try to push on the unsuspecting public for a quick profit and I've definitely seen my fair share. I personally have no problem flaming a $500 piece of garbage and turning around and writing a glowing review on a $35 product from the same company months later. Things like this are usually hit or miss.

    Free stuff? Nah. Everything takes time. Some of that time I'd rather have back in total and not spent messing with worthless, plastic, over-packaged junk or reading insipid pre-release fiction.

    But that's just my opinion, lol. ;)
  • Zoe
    I belong to the Vine program, and actually, I've seen the opposite. Many times, Vine reviews are less complimentary than non-Vine ones. The non-Vine ones may be four/five stars but the person has only one review posted and that's the only time they post. (This is easy to check.) I suspect that some of the non-Vine reviews are from people who have an "in." (Again, it's been shown that some companies have their employees post favorable reviews for their products and unfavorable ones for their competition. It's not just Viners who are unethical.)

    Viners are required to write a certain amount of reviews for the products they receive. Some only write a two-line review, but in my opinion most take reviewing seriously.
  • BobShore
    You're actually missing the biggest point, which is how bad many if not most of the Vine reviews are. Two big reasons for that:

    1) Lazy reviewers - so many of the Vine reviewers clearly haven't bothered to actually try using the product or write a decent review. Why does Amazon allow that? Prune the vine.

    2) Greedy reviewers - even where it's a real review of the product, often the products are reviewed by people who don't know what they are talking about. Such as people using a baby product who have no baby and no idea of what to look for. They justed wanted to get the free stuff. They definitely tend to give overly high reviews because they got the product for free.

    There is a core of good reviewers who do capable and honest reviews. It's not hard to see how there's a good program at the core of this. Amazon just needs to jettison some of the lazy and greedy people in the program. And do it before it destroys the program. As long as Amazon tolerates this behavior, which results in overly favorable and *misleading* reviews, they will appear to be condoning and promoting it.

    The Vine aspect is certainly disclosed by Amazon, but could be more honest. Instead of just saying it's a review from the Vine program, it should say the reviewer received the product for free next to every review rather than assuming people know what Vine means.
  • I am a vine member and my reviews are about half good and half negative.
  • Hey, I'm an Amazon Vine reviewer, and I have to say I've written plenty of bad reviews. I can understand where you're coming from, but don't sweep all of us under the carpet!
  • SC
    I hate to burst your bubble, and I know that my boyfriend is only one anecdote, but if a book sent to him through Amazon Vine sucks, he will give it a bad rating and review.

    Furthermore CL is exactly right. Many of the books sent to him are not that great, and it becomes a chore for him to finish. Occasionally, he gets a great book through the program and remembers why he loves the program, but believe me, I live with him. The program is neither a free cakewalk, nor an underhanded way to garner false positive reviews.
  • Lookey Here
    The only thing that Vine does, effectively, is to warn you that the reviewer is potentially untrustworthy. How's this bad? It's not that shill reviews started with Vine: there are huge numbers of fake reviews without any Vine involved, on amazon and elsewhere. Vine is good because it serves as a warning.
  • Larry Post
    Hey, as an author who got a two-star review from an Amazon Vine reviewer: It may be a disgusting payola system, but the publisher who forks over cash for this "buzz" is just as liable to be ripped off as the reader.
  • Amanda
    I am an Amazon Vine reviewer and yes I get stuff for free. I agree that the glowing 4 and 5 star reviews are likely for the Vine products but am not sure it's because I have had stuff for free. I have also rated stuff one or two stars when I haven't liked or enjoyed a novel. To their credit Amazon do not edit these reviews and they are published just as I wrote them. Recently though I HAVE given lots of 4 and 5 star reviews. The main reason for this is that as a parent I am an avid buyer of children's books and the Vine program has sent me some wonderful stuff. The Gruffalo for example is already a firm favourite with my son so The Gruffalo Magnet Book was an equal hit - even if I had paid for it the review would have been 5 stars. Unlike the last Jilly Cooper books I read (okay, okay I know) which was dreadful and a waste of money - I so wish I had got THAT from the Vine program so I could have given it a bad review without having to fork out the cost of the book!
    Amm off to read a new one now called "Starlight Sailor by James Mayhew and Jackie Morris. The book is filled with her beautiful illustrations which I cannot wait to share with my son and yes... it will probably get 5 stars - just for the illustrations alone.
  • I get vine books.... and even though I'm selective I have panned a few. Mostly I avoid books I wouldn't be interested at all in otherwise.... and to be honest, a lot of what is offered is juvenile fiction and Christian stuff, which I never order nor review. I only look at stuff I would be normally curious about checking out.

    Vine product publishers pay for the privilege. I've read some good stuff and some awful stuff. I rate it on a scale where 3 stars equals middling good, 4 is enjoyable/insightful and 5 is really worthwhile, 2 is tedious and 1 is crap.

    I've panned a few. The process is fair but it does inflate the number of reviews an otherwise obscure title would get. I have zero fear Amazon will withdraw my Vine Voice status or stop sending me books unless I get really obnoxious. As it stands the program is fair but does inflate the number of reviews. Some folks love every book they pay for or invest time in reading... so that may be a factor. I call crap crap personally, but also enjoy fresh stimulation. I have piles of good literature sitting around I haven't read so the idea that Vine readers would request titles by unproven authors to support voracious reading habits is not credible. I could bail on the vine program today and not miss it... but it's kind of fun on the other hand.
  • AverageReviewer
    I'm just a run of the mill average Amazon reviewer and you are right. Anytime I post a review on Amazon and dare to give a book three stars or less, I get attacked. People post nasty comments suggesting I read chick lit or YA books.. they bomb me with negative votes. People forget that reviews are not about whether you agree with the person or not but is it helpful? Reviews are for people contemplating the purchase of the book.

    I think vine is corrupt. I rank in the 3000s and there are people lower than me and they are Vine.. I have never been asked and I think it is due to the fact that I am not stingy with the one and two star books reviews.

    Thumbs up for bringing this to the light.
  • Louie's Mom
    AverageReviewer - I'm one of those people who was lower than you in ranking and who received an invite to Vine.

    You can look up my profile as "Louie's Mom" and you will see plenty of low reviews. In particular, my negative review of Pat Conroy's latest book led to some serious attacks AND some serious agreement.

    I don't see anything corrupt about it. The program pays me for my time, in essence, by giving me free books. My reviews are all over the board in terms of the ratings I give.

    If any of you have serious concerns you need to look at A LOT of Vine reviews before concluding that Vine reviewers tend to give products high marks. If negative reviews led to exclusion from the Vine program, I'd be gone by now.
  • walshjp
    I am an Amazon vine member. Amazon has done nothing to persuade me to rate any product highly. What they do is require that I provide some kind of rating or I may be prohibited from placing another order.
    Becuase of this, I sometimes offer a quick assessment ro offer a reply quickly. This may not be appropriate for a product that where I may change my opinion over time after continued use. But Amazon does allow me to update my review at any time, and I have done this.
  • lovereading marsy
    I'm in Amazon Vine and in no way do they influence our reviews and, in fact, I often write negative reviews; I'm truthful, the same way I would be if I bought the product. They show negative reviews and do nothing to influence us. Honest!
  • Jane White
    I love Amazon but Amazon Vine is a scam. I've had friends mark an Amazon vine review as "unhelpful" but they aren't removed, despite the fact that their remarks include such unhelpful comments as "best used for lining bird cage" and "left-win garrbage."
  • Amazon doesn't remove "non-helpful" reviews. If it did books by authors like Rush Limbaugh would have fans rating every 5-start review helpful and every negative review non-helpful in an effort to get the 1-stars removed. Anti-gay activists would try to hurt gay-movement books. You get the idea. It would equate to censorship.

    In general Amazon publishes submitted reviews. I've reviewed over 100 items and never had a review edited by Amazon or removed. I have had a couple of reviews not appear - this could be a glitch in the system.
  • Reviewers for print outlets are usually reading review copies (often advanced proofs missing things like indexes). I have been a book review editor for academic publications, and processed many very negative reviews of free books.

    I don't commit myself to reviewing a book unless I have reasonable expectations of a positive experience, but still am sometimes disappointed, and my VINE ratings are not all 4- and 5-star. I do not think I am corrupted by getting books free but choosier about what I commit myself to reviewing than about what I buy (and sometimes don't finish)—or, indeed, start).

    Personally, I think there is much more of a problem of Amazon review raters rating on whether they agree with the review rather than whether the reviewer makes his/her case for her/his evaluation.
blog comments powered by Disqus